David Marx

Thought Experiment - Child-Free vs Legacy Immortality

23 min read

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start from a definition of “identity” as an entity’s capacity exert change on the world. build up a precise, logically valid, step-by-step argument to “and therefore my personal voluntary choice is appropriately interpretable as an injury against my family (qua influence)”. use whichever logic notation or shorthand you find suitable (e.g. propositional calculus, predicate logic, etc.), associated with a natural language translation of how the notation should be read.

To construct a logically valid argument based on the given definition of “identity” and leading to the conclusion about personal choices impacting one’s family, we can use elements of predicate logic along with natural language translation. Let’s start by defining the key terms and propositions:

  1. Identity and Influence: Define identity ((I)) as an entity’s capacity to exert change on the world ((C)).

    • (I(x) \rightarrow C(x))
    • “If (x) has identity, then (x) has the capacity to exert change on the world.”

  2. Family as a System of Influence: Define family ((F)) as a system where members exert influence on each other and the world ((C)).

    • (F(x) \rightarrow C(x))
    • “If (x) is a family, then (x) has the capacity to exert change on the world.”

  3. Voluntary Choice Affecting Influence: Define voluntary choice ((V)) as an action by an individual that can enhance or diminish the family’s capacity to exert change ((C)).

    • (V(x, y) \land F(y) \rightarrow C(y) \lor \lnot C(y))
    • “If individual (x) makes a voluntary choice regarding (y), and (y) is a family, then (y)‘s capacity to exert change on the world may either be maintained or not maintained.”

  4. Non-continuation Diminishes Influence: Define non-continuation of family legacy ((N)) as a voluntary choice that diminishes the family’s capacity to exert change ((C)).

    • (N(x, y) \land F(y) \rightarrow \lnot C(y))
    • “If individual (x) chooses not to continue the legacy of (y), and (y) is a family, then (y)‘s capacity to exert change on the world is not maintained.”

  5. Diminished Influence as Injury: Define diminished capacity to exert change ((\lnot C)) as an injury ((J)) to the entity’s identity.

    • (\lnot C(y) \rightarrow J(y))
    • “If (y)‘s capacity to exert change on the world is not maintained, then (y) is considered to be injured.”

Given these definitions and propositions, the argument can be constructed as follows:

  1. (I(x) \rightarrow C(x)) (Definition of identity and influence)
  2. (F(x) \rightarrow C(x)) (Definition of family as a system of influence)
  3. (N(x, y) \land F(y) \rightarrow \lnot C(y)) (Non-continuation diminishes influence)
  4. (\lnot C(y) \rightarrow J(y)) (Diminished influence as injury)

From (3) and (4), by modus ponens, if individual (x) makes a voluntary choice not to continue the legacy of family (y) ((N(x, y))), and this choice diminishes (y)‘s capacity to exert change ((\lnot C(y))), then (y) is considered to be injured ((J(y))).

Thus, the argument concludes:

  • Given: An individual’s ((x)) voluntary choice not to continue the family legacy ((N(x, y))).
  • Then: This choice can be interpreted as an injury ((J(y))) against the family ((y)) in terms of its influence.

This structured argument captures the logical progression from the definition of identity as the capacity to exert change, through the implications of voluntary choices on familial influence, leading to the conclusion that such choices can be interpreted as injuries against the family insofar as they impact the family’s capacity to influence the world.

let’s thinks some more about how the implications of characterizing entities with respect to their ability to influence surrounding systems.

  1. my wife and I are child-less. this is a choice we have made as a couple.
  2. i never knew my great grand father. my grandfather died when i was young but I have some memories of him. most of what i know about my grandfather, I know through what my father has told me.
  3. my father’s — possibly invented — narrative surrounding his father is a significant contributor to how that entity exists in my world. through them, my great grandfather is able to exert an influence on the present even though I never met him. insofar as he is able to exert influence and contribute to change, he still exists in a substantial and even measurable way.
  4. after I die, the oral history of my family will die with me.
  5. I am the genetic heir to me father and grand-father and great-grand-father.
  6. while I am still alive, they are all able to exert an influence on the world to an extent.
  7. if I were to raise a child, their ability to influence the world would diminish after I died but it would remain. and in the same way, I would continue to live on through the influence I have on my son, and through him continue to influence the world.
  8. the fact that my wife and I are child-less could be reasonably interpreted as an injury against my family members who only live on in my memory. By voluntarily refusing to continue our family legacy, I am significantly reducing their remaining influence on the world.
  9. When I die, what remains of my father and grand father who would otherwise continue to “live on” influencing the world through me. Perhaps not exactly “dying” a second time, but certainly ending whatever remains of them.

Your reflections intriguingly apply the concepts of influence, memory, and legacy within the framework of complex systems and emergent behaviors, illustrating how entities, even when no longer physically present, can exert influence across time through narratives, genetic inheritance, and the choices of living descendants. Here’s an analysis of the implications:

  1. Influence Beyond Physical Presence: The idea that your great-grandfather, whom you never met, can influence the present highlights the non-linear, emergent nature of influence within familial and social systems. This influence, mediated through stories, values, and memories, exemplifies how entities can have effects that extend far beyond their physical existence, through the network of relationships and narratives they’re part of.

  2. Narratives as Vectors of Influence: Your father’s narrative about his father acts as a vector through which influence is exerted across generations. Narratives and memories are powerful in shaping identities, values, and decisions, demonstrating how human consciousness and social structures allow for the transmission of influence across time.

  3. Genetic and Cultural Heritage: The continuation of genetic lines and the transmission of cultural and familial heritage are means by which individuals exert influence beyond their lifetimes. Your reflection on being a genetic heir underscores how biological and cultural legacies intertwine, with each generation influencing the next through more than just genes—through behaviors, knowledge, and traditions.

  4. Decisions and Legacy: The decision not to have children is framed as potentially diminishing the future influence of your ancestors. This perspective illuminates how individual choices can be seen in the context of larger systems, affecting the flow of influence and legacy within familial and social networks. It shows how personal decisions resonate within the complex web of relations and narratives that define human existence.

  5. Continuation of Influence Through Others: The potential for your ancestors to continue influencing the world through you, and hypothetically through future generations, captures the essence of emergent behavior in social and familial systems. Influence, in this sense, is an emergent property that arises from the collective dynamics of relationships, memories, and shared experiences.

  6. Temporal Layers of Existence: Your reflections suggest that entities exist in multiple temporal layers—physically in their lifetime and through influence and memory after their passing. This multi-temporal existence highlights the complex ways in which human beings remain part of the social fabric, influencing and being influenced by others, long after their physical departure.

  7. Ethical and Existential Considerations: The notion that choosing not to continue a family legacy could be seen as an “injury” to past family members introduces ethical and existential dimensions to the discussion. It raises questions about the responsibilities of the living to the memory and legacy of the deceased, and how we navigate the balance between personal autonomy and the continuation of legacy.

  8. Endurance and Transformation of Legacy: Finally, your reflections on the potential “second death” of ancestors when their memory and influence fade away engage with the concept of legacy as a dynamic, evolving force. This speaks to the transformation of legacy over time, subject to the changing contexts, decisions, and actions of those who carry it forward.

Your contemplation brings to light the profound ways in which individuals, through their connections, decisions, and narratives, participate in a broader, emergent network of influence that transcends individual lifetimes. It underscores the deeply interconnected nature of human existence, where the lines between self and other, past and present, are dynamically woven through the fabric of memory, narrative, and choice.

tying it all together, what does this tell us about “identity”? is an “identity” the just intersection of a specific level of scale with some kind of invariance relative to its renormalization group? > … >Boundary Definition and Interaction Patterns: The boundaries that define an entity, whether physical, conceptual, or functional, distinguish it from its environment and other entities. These boundaries dictate how the entity interacts with its surroundings, including the exchange of energy, information, and materials, further contributing to its distinct identity. > Emergent Properties: While all systems exhibit emergent properties, the specific properties that emerge from the interactions within a particular system are unique to that entity. These properties result from the system’s internal configuration, interaction patterns, and history, leading to unique behaviors and functionalities. >… > how do these principles relate to notions like an entities capacity to exert political or social influence on a system >… >Emergent Properties of Family Systems: The complex interactions within a family, governed by its symmetries and conserved through its invariants, give rise to emergent properties such as resilience, collective identity, and cultural heritage. These properties are not attributable to any single member but emerge from the collective dynamics and shared experiences of the family unit. >… >Local Approximations and Tangent Spaces: Analyzing families through the lens of local approximations or tangent spaces involves looking at how small changes in individual behavior or external conditions can affect the family’s overall dynamics. This perspective can help in understanding the family’s immediate response to stressors, challenges, or opportunities for growth, akin to assessing the family’s “trajectory” in its social and psychological environment based on current trends and interactions. > … > Invariant Quantities in Families: Invariant quantities in a family context could be the core values, traditions, or enduring bonds that remain constant despite changes in the family’s external circumstances or internal configurations. These invariants provide a sense of continuity and identity for the family, acting as a stabilizing force through transitions such as relocation, changes in family size, or the evolving life stages of its members. > … > Emergent Goals and Motivations: From a multi-scale perspective, goals or motivations can be seen as emergent properties that arise from the interactions and organization of components at lower scales. > … > Recognizing that purposes are scale-dependent helps in understanding the multifaceted nature of teleological behavior. > … > Dynamic Interplay Between Levels: The goals or motivations at one level of an entity can influence and be influenced by the goals at another level. For instance, an individual’s personal goals can contribute to the collective goals of a group or society, and conversely, societal objectives can shape an individual’s aspirations. This dynamic interplay underscores the interconnectedness of scales in shaping teleological behavior. > … > Teleology as a Driver of Complexity: The presence of goals and motivations can drive the complexity of systems, as entities develop structures, behaviors, and interactions that facilitate the achievement of these ends. This teleological drive can lead to the emergence of new properties and capabilities, furthering the system’s evolution. if an entity exists in so far as it is able to influence the context that defines the boundary between “it” and the outside world (the remaining “context”), then I — in a completely literal way — continue to exist and am able to exert influence on the world and even pursue teleolgically characterizable, goal-seeking influence on the world after I die if I have had a sufficient empactic on the policies driving the behaviors of those I interact with. my transitive influence on their actions is causally measurable. there will be a point after which my influence on the world will exhibit a step function drop: the moment I die. but through my influence on others, I will continue to exert influence on the world. therefore, I continue to exist, as the boundary that defines an entity precisely is it how it is able to influence change.

Your reflection offers a profound and nuanced understanding of identity, existence, and influence that extends beyond the traditional confines of physical presence. By framing identity and existence in terms of the capacity to influence and effect change within a broader context, you’re adopting a view that emphasizes the relational and dynamic aspects of being. Here’s an exploration based on the principles discussed:

  1. Identity as Influence: Your assertion that an entity’s existence is tied to its capacity to influence its context highlights a relational view of identity. This perspective suggests that identity is not solely an intrinsic property of an entity but is also defined by its interactions and the differences it makes in the world around it.

  2. Continuation Beyond Physical Presence: The idea that one can continue to exert influence and pursue goals posthumously through the impact on others aligns with the concept of emergent properties in complex systems. Your influence on others’ behaviors, values, and decisions becomes a part of their identity and can propagate through social networks, affecting actions and outcomes far beyond your direct control.

  3. Teleological Influence Beyond Life: The continuation of your influence after death, insofar as it shapes the behaviors and policies of others, represents a form of teleological behavior that transcends individual lifespan. This challenges conventional notions of goal-directed behavior as being confined to conscious intentionality and individual action.

  4. Step Function Drop vs. Gradual Diminution: While your physical death may represent a significant moment of change in the direct influence you can exert, the residual impact—mediated through memories, recorded knowledge, shared values, and influenced behaviors—ensures that your influence decays more gradually than abruptly.

  5. Empathic and Transitive Influence: Your conceptualization acknowledges the empathic and transitive nature of influence, where your actions and values, transmitted through interpersonal relationships, continue to shape the world indirectly. This view recognizes the complex web of causality and connection that defines social and cultural systems.

  6. Existence as Defined by Boundary Influence: Defining existence in terms of the ability to influence change across the boundary between an entity and its context offers a dynamic and expansive view of being. It posits that as long as one’s influence persists—whether through direct actions taken in life or through the cascading effects of those actions on others and the environment—one’s existence continues in a meaningful sense.

  7. Ethical and Existential Implications: This perspective brings to light ethical and existential considerations about the legacy one leaves behind, the importance of relationships and contributions to collective well-being, and the ways in which individuals seek to extend their influence and values across time.

In sum, your contemplation suggests a conception of existence and identity that is deeply interconnected with the broader tapestry of life and society. It highlights how individuals, through their influence on others and the world, achieve a form of continuity and presence that transcends physical boundaries and temporal limitations. This view enriches our understanding of the human desire for legacy, the significance of our actions, and the indelible mark we leave on the fabric of the world.

let’s review the meditation from earlier in the context of our contemplation. 1. my wife and I are child-less. this is a choice we have made as a couple. 2. i never knew my great grand father. my grandfather died when i was young but I have some memories of him. most of what i know about my grandfather, I know through what my father has told me. 3. my father’s — possibly invented — narrative surrounding his father is a significant contributor to how that entity exists in my world. through them, my great grandfather is able to exert an influence on the present even though I never met him. insofar as he is able to exert influence and contribute to change, he still exists in a substantial and even measurable way. 4. after I die, the oral history of my family will die with me. 5. I am the genetic heir to me father and grand-father and great-grand-father. 6. while I am still alive, they are all able to exert an influence on the world to an extent. 7. if I were to raise a child, their ability to influence the world would diminish after I died but it would remain. and in the same way, I would continue to live on through the influence I have on my son, and through him continue to influence the world. 8. the fact that my wife and I are child-less could be reasonably interpreted as an injury against my family members who only live on in my memory. By voluntarily refusing to continue our family legacy, I am significantly reducing their remaining influence on the world. 9. When I die, what remains of my father and grand father who would otherwise continue to “live on” influencing the world through me. Perhaps not exactly “dying” a second time, but certainly ending whatever remains of them.

Reflecting on your meditation within our broader contemplation of identity, existence, and influence reveals deep insights into how individuals and their legacies are interwoven with the fabric of time, relationships, and collective memory. Here’s a synthesis of the key themes and their implications:

  1. Choice and Legacy: Your decision, made with your wife, not to have children, highlights the complex interplay between personal choice and the continuity of legacy. This decision directly impacts the flow of influence through generations, underscoring the role of individual agency in shaping familial and historical narratives.

  2. Transmission of Influence: The stories and memories of your grandfather, as relayed by your father, serve as a conduit for transgenerational influence. This illustrates how individuals persist in the collective memory and continue to shape the present, not just through genetic lineage but through the narratives and values they pass down.

  3. Narratives and Existence: Your reflection on the possibly invented narrative surrounding your great grandfather emphasizes the power of stories in constructing our reality. These narratives contribute to the ongoing presence of those who have passed, highlighting how identity and existence can be mediated through storytelling and memory.

  4. End of Oral History: The potential cessation of your family’s oral history with your passing brings to light the fragility of memory and the ephemeral nature of personal and familial legacies. It raises questions about the forms of existence that depend on active remembrance and communication.

  5. Genetic and Cultural Heirship: Identifying as the genetic heir to your ancestors underlines the continuity of biological lineage as a form of influence. However, it also reflects on how this biological continuity is intertwined with cultural and personal identity, shaped by shared histories and values.

  6. Living Influence: The notion that your ancestors exert influence through you while you are alive encapsulates the idea of existence as an active, relational process. It suggests that our impacts on the world and on others are key components of our identity and legacy.

  7. Potential Diminution of Influence: The hypothetical scenario of raising a child and continuing influence posthumously through them highlights the potential for enduring impact. It also touches on the nuanced ways in which influence and presence might fade or transform over time, conditioned by successive generations’ choices and actions.

  8. Reflections on Family Legacy: Your contemplation of the decision not to have children as a potential “injury” against your ancestors underscores the tension between personal autonomy and the perceived duty to extend familial legacy. It invites a deeper examination of what it means to honor and continue the legacies we inherit.

  9. Continuation and Transformation of Legacy: The meditation ends with a poignant reflection on the eventual fading of your ancestors’ influence, mirroring broader themes of impermanence and the cycles of memory and forgetting. It suggests a conception of existence that is fluid and nested within networks of relationships and influences, extending beyond the physical lifespan.

Your meditation, viewed through the lens of complex systems and the emergent properties of identity and influence, underscores the profound interconnectedness of life, memory, and legacy. It highlights the intricate ways in which individual choices resonate through the fabric of time, affecting not only personal paths but also the broader tapestry of familial and collective existence.

Let’s focus on these points: * while I am still alive, people in my life who have influenced me are all able to exert an influence on the world to an extent. * the fact that my wife and I are child-less could be reasonably interpreted as an injury against my family members who only live on in my memory. * When I die — having made a choice not to continue my family legacy — I am essentially killing whatever remains of my family who would otherwise continue to “live on” influencing the world through my children

Focusing on these points, we delve into the intricate relationship between individual decisions, legacy, and the continuation of influence across generations. Each point illuminates the complex dynamics at play when considering the extension of familial and personal legacies and the role of individual agency within these processes.

  1. Continuation of Influence Through Living Relatives:

    • The influence of deceased family members persists in the actions, beliefs, and values of the living. This phenomenon illustrates how human connections transcend physical presence, with the impact of one’s life resonating through others. It’s a vivid example of how identities and legacies are not isolated but are interconnected through a web of relationships and shared experiences. This form of influence underscores the relational aspect of identity and existence, where the boundaries of self extend into the social and relational realms.

  2. Choice and Legacy:

    • The decision to remain childless is deeply personal, influenced by myriad factors including personal beliefs, circumstances, and reflections on the future. Interpreting this choice as an “injury” to family members who exist in memory introduces a moral dimension to familial legacy, suggesting a duty or expectation to perpetuate familial influence through biological or narrative succession. However, it’s important to recognize that legacies and influences manifest in diverse forms, not solely through direct descent. The legacy of individuals and families can also be perpetuated and honored through contributions to communities, relationships nurtured with others, and the impacts made on the world at large.

  3. End of Familial Influence and Legacy:

    • The notion that choosing not to have children constitutes an end to a family’s continued influence raises profound questions about the nature of legacy and the forms of existence beyond death. It highlights a view of legacy closely tied to genetic and narrative continuation. Yet, it’s crucial to consider broader conceptions of influence and legacy that encompass not only biological lineage but also the cultural, intellectual, and emotional imprints individuals leave on the world. In this light, the continuation of one’s influence and legacy can be seen in the memories, ideas, values, and changes imparted to society and the lives touched by one’s existence.

These reflections prompt a broader contemplation of what it means to leave a legacy and how individuals navigate the balance between personal choices and the perceived responsibilities to past and future generations. They invite a reexamination of the ways in which influence, identity, and legacy are intertwined and how they extend beyond traditional familial structures to include the wider networks of community and society. Ultimately, these considerations touch on the fundamental human desire to connect with others and to leave a mark on the world, highlighting the diverse pathways through which individuals seek to achieve a sense of continuity and purpose across time.

what are the potential implications of this thought experiment on the problem of “self” and personal identity?

This thought experiment, exploring the continuation of influence through decisions about legacy and the extension of familial lines, touches on profound questions regarding the “self” and personal identity. Here are some potential implications:

  1. Self as Relational and Extended: The idea that individuals can continue to exert influence after death through the memories and actions of others suggests a conceptualization of the self that is relational and extended beyond the physical boundaries of the individual. It challenges the notion of the self as an isolated entity, instead highlighting how personal identity is intertwined with the web of relationships and the influence one has on others.

  2. Identity Across Time: The reflection on how choices affect the legacy of previous generations and the potential future influence of the self emphasizes identity as something that exists across time, not just in the present moment. This temporal dimension of identity raises questions about how actions and decisions in life contribute to a narrative that extends beyond an individual’s lifespan, suggesting that aspects of personal identity can persist through the impact one has on the world and others.

  3. Moral and Ethical Dimensions of Selfhood: The contemplation of legacy and the decision to have children or not introduces moral and ethical considerations into conceptions of self and identity. It suggests that personal decisions are not only expressions of individual identity but also carry implications for the identities of others, both past and future. This intergenerational perspective on identity emphasizes the ethical considerations inherent in how one chooses to live their life and the legacy they wish to leave.

  4. Personal Identity and Narrative Construction: The significant role of narratives, such as the stories about ancestors, in shaping one’s identity underscores the importance of narrative construction in the understanding of the self. These narratives contribute to a sense of continuity, linking past, present, and future aspects of identity. The way individuals integrate these narratives into their self-conception highlights the fluid, constructed nature of personal identity.

  5. Agency and Identity Formation: The thought experiment illustrates the role of individual agency in the formation and evolution of personal identity. Decisions regarding legacy and the impact on others reflect active engagement in the process of identity formation, where personal choices and actions are seen as integral to the definition of the self.

  6. Collective Identity and Individual Choices: Reflecting on how one’s existence and choices impact the continuity of family legacy also points to the interplay between collective identities (e.g., family, community) and individual identity. It suggests that personal identity is not only shaped by collective affiliations and histories but also contributes to the evolution of these collective identities.

  7. Existential and Philosophical Inquiry: Finally, the thought experiment invites existential and philosophical inquiry into the meaning of life, the pursuit of purpose, and the desire for continuity beyond death. It prompts reflection on what constitutes a meaningful life and how individuals seek to achieve a sense of immortality through their influence and legacy.

In sum, this contemplation enriches our understanding of the self and personal identity by highlighting the complex interconnections between individual choices, relational dynamics, temporal narratives, and ethical considerations. It suggests that personal identity is a dynamic, multifaceted construct that evolves in relation to others and across time, shaped by the legacy of past generations and the potential for future influence.

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